So then Two Face?
Posted by Allison Mack | Filed under Blog
This is a response that one of my best friends in the world sent to me.
We have been discussing the idea of compassion and having compassion for self.
So those conversations combined with my latest blog produced this response:
I liked it so I thought I’d share.
hey,
reading your blog entry. I need to admit I love the joker. He is the
un-doer of schemes, the troubler of schemers. And destruction is just
another form of creativity. The goddess Kali is the goddess of
creation AND destruction. I think I’ve been realizing that I can’t
believe in a universe of connections without concurrently and
contradictorily believing in a universe of chaos. So can we believe in
creation without also believing in destruction?I can relate to the joker. He’s the part of me that will disagree with
the masses, because someone has to. He’s the part of me that
shit-disturbs when the shit needs disturbing. He’s the whole side of
me that believes the universe likes to kick us in the butt and
sometimes I’m part of that force. And he’s the one that reminds us
that there really isn’t much use to making plans, because our plans
will undo us. He lives for the moment. Total imp. Total chaos and
primal force.He is, of course, your other half.
xo
R.
So that being read, what do you all think? Is is possible to believe in creation without also believing in destruction?
Do we have to taste bad to know good?
Tags: batman, compassion, destruction, humanity, joker, personality, schemes
60 Responses to “So then Two Face?”
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I'm Rachel Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 8:18 amWhat do you mean by destruction? Do you mean that if I believe that the world was created,it will be destroyed some day? I’m not sure what your saying.
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I'm Rachel Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 8:25 amOh I completely forgot to read the rest of the bolg! I’m SO SORRY. Well now that I read the rest I’m going to say I do believe we need a kick in the butt,or to go through rough times to appreciate the good. But as for me,I can look at another persons bad sitiation and see how good I’ve got it so um …yeah
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I'm Rachel Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 8:26 amOh and the joker reminds me of the devil.
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I'm Rachel Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 8:33 amRight now my family and I are going through hard times so yes,it does make me very much appreciate how it was.
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Gnome Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 8:38 amI’m Rachel,
It pretty much means that we gonna go back to the balance entry again…
The damn Yin Yang.
The two sides inside us that make us one and that suppose to live in harmony. The good is supposed to complete the bad and vice-versa.
Yeah, but go try to balance them. Especially at PMS… -
Melissa Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 8:40 amHi.
Well the answer will be YES,because to get what we always want,we can’t get it just with a quick movement,we have to know what it’s like to be in bad experiences,to taste every step we make,to be able to know how is the world around us,and if tha means to get into bad experiences so be it.We learn more from bad experiendes,it teachs us not to make the same mistake again,or at least not to make a big mistake anymore.
Enjoy the day Allison,you’re wonderful jeje.
Bye,Melissa. -
Bouroux Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 8:59 amHi Allison
Do we have to taste bad to know good?
Yes, but:
We must not voluntarily put in bad situations to enjoy life. The experiences of others and the consequences of our mistakes are a great source of information.
This blog, which allows us to share experiences of life, is of great value.
Bye
Claude -
David M. Kennedy-Farner Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 9:03 amWell good goes with bad. With every decision comes an urge to act out of good or bad… You can create trust with someone by telling the truth or destroy it by lying to them. Just like in Genesis, God gave us the choice of good and bad. If one is Christian, then you believe in God. And if you believe in God, then you have to believe in Satan. If believe in Satan, then you have no motivation to follow God. Just like Gnome said, It’s the concept of Yin & Yang. Without both sides you’re incomplete…
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The Friday Philosopher Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 9:05 amYour friend is seemingly a very deep person. I actually enjoyed reading this post. Not that I don’t enjoy reading what you have to say of course!!!
(It took some Olympic standard, digging to get myself out of that hole then! Phew.)On a slight side note, I finally managed to see the film myself last night, which I enjoyed very much by the way. As your friend has identified the Joker within his or herself, I personally found myself drawn more towards the character, Two Face. I look nothing like Aaron Eckhart; he certainly has more hair than I, though my girlfriend has just said that I am the better looking of the two!
That reminds me, I have to book her next appointment at the opticians!Anyway, I can see the point your friend was trying to make, I think we all have that side that will undo the best laid plans if we give it the opportunity. There is a part of me that will forever, (hopefully) disagree with the masses, especially when they’re in the wrong, and I constantly find myself disturbing the “shit” at opportune moments! Yet like I mentioned earlier, I found myself drawn more toward Two Face. I can’t explain why exactly, I obviously knew what was going to happen to him the moment I heard the character name, but I don’t know if I was drawn because of what he would become or because of what he was.
I guess the reason is that, because I have lived long enough to build a high tolerance to the things that would have unleashed The Beast within me, unlike when I was a young man; like Harvey Dent, it would now take a great deal of effort to unleash the wrong side of me. I don’t fear The Beast within any more; now, I fear what somebody would have to do to unleash it!
I know that was off topic slightly but I just had to say it.
So, back to the post! Do we have to taste bad to know good?
Well, my answer to that would be, I certainly hope we don’t.
I would sell my soul if it would allow my children to grow up in a world where nothing bad ever happened to them. On the other hand, experience tells me that this will never happen, not in my lifetime anyway!
I also think that we may have to taste the bad, but only to better appreciate that which is good; I’m sure that if the world were a perfect Utopia, those that live there would take for granted what some, today can only dream of.As for Creation and Destruction, I’m positive that we can’t have the one without the other, not that I’m sure I believe in the possibility, but if the “Big Bang Theory” happened to be correct, then for Creation itself to happen, something would first need to be destroyed!
Friday
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David M. Kennedy-Farner Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 9:05 amI made a typo in sentence 5. *If you don’t believe in Satan,….
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Ana_Sullivan Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 9:44 amYeah I believe in the YingYang theory!!! No good without evil, not evil without good… it’s the eternal battle, good and evil, but they´ll never win… it’s impossible because good and evil must to coexist. I believe that in every single thing of this world there should be the two sides of the coin. If fault one of the sides, the other side can’t exist.
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Michelle19 Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 9:50 amWho’s kali? Is she from the hindu religion?
Anyway, I don’t think I get how destruction can be creative. Do you mean the way in which the destruction is caused?
I think that we do have different sides to us (humans), more than just good and bad, and all those little sides of us make up the good and bad. However I don’t think that we should embrace those aspects of our personalities that would lead us to a state of mind like the joker (not exactly like the joker …. but you know what i’m trying to say).
I also think that in some cases people appreciate the good things in life more when there been some sort of struggle to obtain, and i’m not only speakin’ of material things.
So that’s my take.
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Emily Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 10:00 amWell, when you put it that way… I am a Catholic, and have grown up around Bible stories that contrast creation and destruction. And yes, I believe in both. According to the stories, God flooded the Earth because it had been corrupted. God destroyed an entire Egyptian army in the Red Sea. He also created the whole world. It all comes back to the Garden of Eden – Adam and Eve, that first sin. And no human is perfect. To relate it to good vs. evil, only it’s not really the same concept – if we believe good is good, aren’t there some that would believe the very opposite? That evil is good? With creation and destruction… everything has to balance. Think of how boring life would be if everything worked perfectly, if we didn’t have to solve problems or figure anything out! “The circle of life is a wheel of fortune…” Same concept. =)
Love from Arkansas!
-Emily -
Lou Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 10:08 amthat sounds about right to me. isn’t there some sort of nordic belief of some similar concept called “ragnarok” or something like that? things go in cycles. always have, always will. it’s just a means of finding the right balance in everything.
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arash Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 10:14 amFor those of you who are still not used to the black background and white writings I have a solution;
find a word in the middle of your screen and stare at it for 40 secends, then close your eyes and wait after 7 seconds the same page will appear with white background and black writings.I think this is the way joker reads this blog.
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Scott Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 10:56 amIt goes back to Joker wanting to see the world burn. He’s gone mad from the events of his life, and as said, he’s so far gone that the events that shaped him don’t matter to him anymore. And worse, he doesn’t WANT the events that shaped him to be known or addressed. He just wants to tear everything down to his maniacal level.
Two-Face… comics and animation, he’s a bit different. He’s about the split of self, I think, and how chaotic that can be. I don’t have time to really analyze him at the moment, so I will try to revisit to post about him.
There is something I forgot to post in the last blog entry. There’s a song that I feel encapsulates everything The Joker is, and at the end, his relationship with Batman. It is, no surprise, done by Danny Elfman (who composed the Batman theme for the ’89 movie) during his stint with Oingo Boingo. Here’s a version with the full song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pRROs8oerU
And this is the music video, which is missing some parts of the song, but you get an artistic rendering of the song that I think complements the concepts in mind well and has a lot of Joker undertones.
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Scott Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 10:57 amOops, the second video didn’t copy and paste right the first time. Here it is.
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Scott Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 11:09 amFor anyone confused about that last post of mine, my first one in this blog is awaiting moderation for some reason. You can still check the second link; I basically said the full song seems to me like it fits The Joker well, while the music video gives good visual of the whole mindset.
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I'm Rachel Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 11:10 amHey friday,
I was readingyour first post and it said oylmpic standard hole digging! That was hilarious!:)!
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jennygirl Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 11:13 amI think it’s good for us to have an opposing side inside of us…to question the majority..to help keep it in check…the side of us that makes us argue with our Repulican parents, as well as our Democratic in-laws…(I think they both think I’m of the opposing party).
But not a fan of destruction. I believe in friendly opposition, as long as one uses manners. And uses it for contemplation rather than blind allegiance.
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The Friday Philosopher Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 11:21 amHey Rachel,
I’m getting quite proficient at Olympic Hole Digging now! That and Olympic Shoe chewing!
I’m always putting my foot in my mouth!
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Robert Kappz Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 11:22 amThat’s an easy one. Ironically the story of superman is a good analogy. He represents “God” on earth. A supremely powerful being that is good no matter what he faces. He constantly questions himself and his decisions to make sure he is doing the right thing. And if he makes a mistake and inadvertently does the wrong thing we know he is good simply b/c he is his harshest critic under the scrutiny of his conscience. If you step on a bug out of anger or hate you bring bad karma, if you step on a bug accidentally you won’t make any karma, good or bad. There is a superman and a lex luther in everyone, when we’re angry we want to destroy the world and when we’re happy we want to save it from itself. When you’re happy you will help to save the world, when you’re angry you will help to destroy it little by little.
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Robin Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 11:32 amWell part of the reason The Joker is such a popular character is as stated , an agent of total random chaos.
The reason why so many “bad guys” in stories are so memorable is because it is part wish fulfillment, they get to say and do things we all at times have thought about (however briefly) yet actually go through and do those things whatever the resulting circumstances.
It’s what makes stories so popular, especially in the movies, theatre and even in books, we get that experience of doing outragous things which of course in reality no right minded person would do.
As in all things in life ofcourse there has to be destruction in relation to creation, its a balancing act as in all things in life, light and dark,rich and poor, up and down, hard and soft, and those with gramma and those like me without!
I guess we all strive to be better balanced people, I guess its our daily struggle to strive to be more creative than destructive in everything we do, to cooking, how we talk to others and how we treat ourselves.
What are your thoughts?? -
Patrick Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 11:52 amHey all, I wasn’t going to post on here, I was just going to sneak about in the background (as usual) but after reading this post I decided I wanted to add something.
When considering what life would be like without the negative things in it; murder, chaos, death, destruction, we automatically think things would be so much better. A paradise…right? Maybe, but I simply don’t think it’s possible, not in the reality we know anyway. It’s my belief that in order for us, and the universe through us, to have an experience we need an opposing force, an antagonist, an opposite, a force working against us to move us forward or backwards, a little like we need the ground to run on. There has to be a balance, an order. Good and evil and all the grey areas in between need to hold each other in place, their opposing forces working against each other, to keep that balance, that order. So all the destruction and chaos we see in the world, all we fear, we need it all to keep that order. So although it seems strange there’s a vital place in the universe for the bad, the forces of chaos, whatever you want to call them, negative forces, even though if we ever have to deal with the extremes in our daily lives, if for instance, God forbid, our loved one was murdered or died in an accident, it’s all part of the process and even in that loss it’s a part of the natural system of the universe, part of maintaining that essential balance. It’s literally the necessary evil, something we have to accept as part of the gift of life, the good and the bad. Knowing this is important.
The Joker in The Dark Knight does his part to provide that balance. Lex Luthor in Smallville seems to have been created to oppose Clark, to provide him with an opportunity to be a hero, to be who he is, because without the likes of Lex just who would Clark be exactly?
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taylor nikole Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 12:16 pmback to the question…
can we really say something is good and bad?
is that our conscience?
haha
and really if… in my opinion… i think tasting the bad is the good way… also unfortunate but effective way to learn what this so called ‘good’ is.
Can it in a way go back to logic…
developing a sense of good and bad?
bahhh
confusion
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Gail Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 12:33 pmWe are all considered two-faced at one point or another in our lives. We are not going to please everybody. Someone will never agree. What they think is bad you may think is good. If we try to change what we think is right may be wrong to someone else.
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Darwin Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 12:54 pmYes there IS good and evil.
And yes we have to choose.
Be enticed by one or the other.
Which from what I gather about what has been said…is what was going on in The Dark Knight.
People being enticed by one side or the other.
That being said…again…we DO NOT HAVE to reinvent the wheel daily.
NO ONE has to challenge whether murder is bad. It has BEEN established centuries ago.
Many …politicians…con men or women…organized crime…unorganized crime…like to say there IS no evil…keep things grey instead of black and white…so fewer people complain and they can get away with a lot more.
Which is the only purpose for confusion.
So people do not notice things until they are too late.
In BATMAN BEGINS…which I DID see…Batman was the…*ahem*..”disturber” of things that needed disturbing…
The bad guys were doing as they pleased…and things looked hopeless: corrupt police…corrupt judges…criminals ruled the roost.
Batman came and changed all of that.
NOW…according to previews I have seen…the Joker is complaining along with others…that a year ago NO ONE WOULD HAVE DARED oppose the gang lords.
What happened?
Batman?
The solution?
Kill Batman.
Destroy him.
Failing that…destroy his reputation.
TRY to reduce him…try to turn him into a refection of the Joker himself.
Make him KILL for the joy of killing.
And people line up on either side of this.
As they are enticed by one side or the other.
But…
There are ALWAYS consequences to such choices.
When people carelessly and casually…frivolously…say they admire the Joker and relate to him…
One has to ask: Why?
To be contrary?
To be seen as an “original” thinker?
There are ALWAYS consequences for lining up on the wrong side.
OR…
For doing nothing…
And giving evil it’s way.
To quote Miss maudie from TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD: “I simply want to tell you that there are some men in this world who were born to do unpleasant jobs for us. Your father’s one of them.”
Of course…the father being referred to is Atticus Finch.
Again, Miss Maudie: “We’re so rarely called on to be Christians…but when we are…we’ve got men like Atticus to go for us.”
If they are ALL Christians and they ALL go to church and they ALL learn the same thing…why is only Atticus required to LIVE the teachings?
Why IS IT that there are only SOME men in this world who were born to do unpleasant jobs for us?
Why don’t we all?
And as far as…*ahem* “DISTURBERS” go…I would rather have MORE Atticus Finches than people like the Joker any day of the week.
That IS what would be best. It’s not a matter of opinion.
Centuries of history prove it.
It’s like arguing the world is flat.
Doesn’t make it any less round.
And since we all should know of some of this history…we should ALL be Atticus Finches.
So why are we not?
Because…perhaps of…
…self-centered self-indulgence…?
Or maybe…
Not letting ourselves “be spectacular” like the quote from Nelson Mandela…
Or maybe we just get distracted by something shiney?
Or…
Maybe we allow ourselves to be confused…until it is too late.
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StephenK Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 1:15 pm“Do we have to taste bad to know good?”
Do we have to hate deeply to be able to truly love?
So Hollywood creates a fictional character, the Joker, and people like R. identify with him and what… admire him, want to emulate him.
Destruction is easy, it takes no talent and not much effort. But try to picture how far ahead humanity would be today if it wasn’t for the destroyers.
I saw twin piles of rubble down the road from me in NYC, it is impossible for me not to believe in destruction. But relate to it, believe it is necessary or is somehow part of (or related to) the genius of creation. No.
SteveK -
Nikk Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 2:09 pm“Do we have to taste bad to know good?”
Yes. In order to succeed, you first must fail repeatedly.
Something like that.
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Robin Hebert Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 2:18 pmI think mankind has already tasted bad, when they fell from grace, from their position as God’s children. We get a taste of what we could be like with our full potential whenever we see things that defy “normal” brain power, geniuses, idiot savants so to speak, we get a glimpse of what the brain is capable of.
As a Christian, I believe that we can come back to what we were born for…..living our lives with great potential and wisdom…experiencing goodness. Yes bad things happen to “good” people because we live in a fallen world. What I have mainly learned through hard times is that with the wisdom I get from God, I can circumvent things that would try and trip me up. -
David Hayes Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 2:21 pmOne think stands out to me. As an agent of Chaos, the Joker’s plan’s were certainly tightly made — not random.
We break the soil to prepare for new growth. The decay of old life provides fertilizer for new life. Old buildings come down so that new ones can take their place.
Maintaining order requires energy. Chaos happens on its own — it doesn’t need our active help.
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I'm Rachel Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 2:57 pmFriday,
Your hilarious.
I guess I could maybe qualify for the olympic standard quiet game…hehe. Not really, I’ve kind of become quite the chatter box on some days. -
Scott Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 3:18 pm“David Hayes Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 2:21 pmOne think stands out to me. As an agent of Chaos, the Joker’s plan’s were certainly tightly made — not random.”
The Joker states he just does things, he doesn’t really think of where they lead.
It’s entirely possible to come up with an ingenious plan without actually trying to think. A lot of what he does, I can compare to how I am when I write. When I write something really spectacular, I’m not thinking about the end, I don’t have it mapped out. It just goes. And in the course of it going, new things crop up that I never would have come up with if I sat down and actually tried to think about where I was going with it.
That is, I think, a big part of why The Joker is the ultimate arch-nemesis to Batman. Batman plans for every contingency, plans for every possible turn of events he can think of. The Joker DOESN’T think, he just does, and it rests on Batman to figure out what’s going on in split second decisions. Batman’s about maintaining order, thinking things through; Joker’s about ringing in chaos through chaotic thinking.
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Darwin Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 3:45 pmScott: Writing is NOT actually a fair comparison…because the ONLY variables come from INSIDE ones head.
The ONLY obstacles as well.
In an otherwise AMAZING book…Harper Lee has Scout and Jem go to the event at the school alone…at night.
EVEN though it is Scout’s FIRST ever performance….Atticus suddenly has no interest in going and Calpurnia suddenly has no interest in going…the Aunt has no interest in going…
ALL because it was a PLOT point of conveniance…!!!
Because Scout and Jem HAD to be alone in the dark for Ewell to attack them and for Boo Radley to be the one to save them.
It’s like…at that moment…some of the SMALLVILLE writers took over!
CHLOE: “Clark! Lex has the keys that will control/destroy you AND bring about the apocolypse!…Did you get them from him?”
CLARK: “No. I DON’T CARE! …because the writers told me I was more concerned with watching Lana be comatose than saving the world…”
Writing in one’s head can SEEM brilliant…
BUT…
…stuff in the REAL WORLD requires some measure of practicality…as real world plans encounter real world obstacles….difficulties…a unending MULTITUDE of variables because of an unending multitude of variables of people/circumstance and situations.
Not even the weather cooperates.
Which is why SHOOTING a story is WAY more difficult than writing it…as a rule.
AND…this is why …in the real world…people who don’t think fall short fast…and never reach “ingenious”.
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Scott Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 3:54 pmThat’s a good point, but I think what I suggest remains true for the simple reason that you can overcome those obstacles with a little creativity. That’s really what I think is how the Joker operates, creativity. He gets trapped in a corner and he comes up with a way to get out of it.
A lot of what he does in the film DOES imply planning, but it’s not necessarily the kind of planning people have in mind here. Did he expect that Harvey Dent would become a severe oil burn victim? Doubtful. A direct quote:
“Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? I’m a dog chasing cars. I wouldn’t know what to do with one if I caught it! You know…I just do things. The mob has plans. The cops have plans. Gordon’s got plans. You know…they’re schemers. Schemers trying to control their little worlds. I’m not a schemer. I try to show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are. So when I say… eh, come here. When I say that you and your girlfriend was nothing personal, you know that I’m telling the truth. It’s the schemers… that put you where you are. You were a schemer. You had plans. And, uh … look where that got you.”
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paul Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 4:40 pmAh yes, the Manichaean heresy, the idea that without the devil, God is incomplete.
This is also a concept much cherished by anarchists, the idea that destruction is a vital part of creation.
I admit I have little patience for anarchists. Heretics, though… these I find to be much more interesting!
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Andrea Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 5:03 pmI love the way your friend thinks, very deep. I’m not entirely sure I agree though.
Yes…I do believe we have good in us, and the potential for bad. But I dont think we have to experience the hate in us to know it’s there….or live a hateful life to appreciate goodness.
I did find myself relating to the Joker…because there are points in my life that I look at the world and think “what the hell is going on here, have we all just lost our minds?” But thats what seperates me from him..I would never ever act out the way he did.
Which is why I agree and disagree with your friend. There’s madness inside of us all….but by no means does your curiousty give you the right to explore that “evil.” It’s not something that really can be explored lightly. Once you cross that line….there’s no coming back.
Our humanity and compassion are what makes us human…and the second we feed into our dark side is the moment we decide that humanity isnt worth fighting for anymore.
Thats what separates every day people from the joker. He decided the world wasnt worth fighting for….and like I’ve said, once you get in that deep there’s no coming back.
So to answer the question, yes…I do think we have to be intune with the dark side of ourselves. It’s not being two faced…it’s being human. Nobody is perfect. But I dont believe it’s a part of us that needs to be explored in depth. Thats just making an excuse for ones reckless behavior. “Sorry I killed that man officer, he cut me off in traffic and I’m only exploring my dark side.”
Lots of love!
Andrea
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Maria Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 5:04 pmInteresting. Umm… I do think that in order for us to TRULY appreciate the good we need to experience the bad. Because some people believe that nothing bad could ever happen to them and that they’re untouchable and they kind of need that kick in the ass in order to kind of wake up.
And I agree with nikk that to succeed we need to fail repeatedly. It’s like that quote from Thomas Edison.
“I didn’t fail, I simply learned how to NOT do a LIghtbulb.”
Or something like that. Actually an Alicia Keyes song comes to mind called “I need You”. Which she kind of says things that need another…
“North needs South
East needs west
No needs yes.
Up needs down
Life needs Death
and no needs yesI need you.”
That song actually made me think that maybe that is true. We can’t have one thing and not have the other. We can’t love if we haven’t been loved, there can’t be creation if there isn’t destruction, we can’t appreciate what we have until we lose it.
XoXo
Maria
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The Friday Philosopher Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 5:04 pmYeah, you were a little quit for a while Rachel, but that’s why I like reading the comments you do post. You may not always have much to say, but the little you do have to say is worth reading!
There’s nothing worse than writing something just because you can! In my opinion, silence can be just as enlightening.
Friday
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Darwin Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 5:25 pmScott: The REALITY then is…if the Joker was real…and just like a dog chasing a car…it would not take much to trip him up.
Like…
… someone deciding to step on the brakes at the WRONG moment for the dog in pursuit ..because a bee flew in the window and their beverage spilled.
And the pursuer goes “SPLAT”.
Hardly effective or ingenious if they can be taken out by a bee and a beverage.
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Lori Bennett Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 5:59 pmof course i believe that there is destruction as there was a creation. just as i know that the creator is God, and the prince of destruction is Satan. good vs. evil has existed ever since lucifer (satan) thought he was as good as God, therefore God condemned him to an everlasting Hell (haiti-not to be confused w/ the country) each religion has good and evil, whatever they may think each are. lucifer fell before adam and eve did, possibly b4 they were created. that was when evil first entered the world was when satan was cast out of Heaven. so of course there are two, not one or the other. for those evolutionist or athiest in this little community we dwell in think of this- if we are just elements that just became out of nothing how is it that we have such things as good and evil, creation and destruction? how is it if we came from monkeys through evolution why is there still monkeys in the world if we are an evolve species. what’s so humorous of the coming from monkeys is the fact that just b/c our bones are more alike than any other specie evolutionist one day said oh we came from these creature but are better b/c we evolved. we did not evolve for if we did and the world according to them as being trillions of years old (try 6,000 yrs old) then wouldn’t we have become even a high form of being and intellect instead of merely stuck as average humans?
hey allison i liked what ur friend said. it’s just the whole goddess of creation that i don’t agree with, but everybody has the free will to believe as they want. can’t wait to see the episode u direct. props to u girlfriend-keep leaving us thinking i enjoy it. -
David Hayes Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 6:12 pmJoker walked into the crime syndicate … but he had a bomb vest on him. That took planning. He had previously robbed a bank and timed it to make his escape in a way that made him hard to catch.
He got caught by the police … but he had planned to be there and had planned for a henchman with a bomb inside to be there to. It looked like planning to me. He may not have planned on what happened to Harvey Dent, but he made plans to make use of it.
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Lindsey Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 7:01 pmIt’s like that one episode of Smallville in season five where Lex is split into the two hims… the good one, that he lets everyone see, and the completely evil one that drives him inside. I think the important thing is, that at least for a while, he let the good part of him be in control instead of the bad part. Maybe it’s like that with most all of us, we let the goodness in us override the evil in us. I think that nobody LIKES to live in misery, or to create sadness and destruction in other peoples lives unless they are driven to do so. Some people have been so hurt through the course of their lives that they don’t know any better than to treat the people around them than they have been treated themselves… and then comes the whole Golden Rule thing
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Puffy Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 7:07 pm“Every act of creation is first an act of destruction.” Pablo Picasso
I enjoyed R’s thoughts about chaos vs creation. It’s easier to appreciate in nature, as nature creates and destroys impartially and a beautiful, functioning world is the end result.
For us humans, somes the destroyers are the ones doing the right thing. The tearing down the Berlin wall… the removal of apartheid and segregation… better, fairer systems could not be created until the old system was destroyed.
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Brazilian Girl-Kml Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 7:52 pmHey Allison and all you guys who read this… I don’t believe in good and evil and I don’t think that we need to taste good to know bad….. I believe that everything has its balance…. but sometimes we need to fall to rise…. I’m totally like this… my mom always says “don’t go on this way” and even listening to it I do the thing that was in my head and sometimes I’m not so happy with the consequences… Good things, good energies, good vibrations all this stuff that is good are always coming to us but because of our choices the bad things sometimes come first.. We are made of good things and if you stop and analyse we will see that evil doesn’t exist… what exist is the absence of good… Well this is my opinion… Am I wrong to think like this?
Nice weekend to all you with good energies… -
Scott Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 7:55 pmDarwin: that’s the beauty of fiction. We can talk all we like about how we think things would go down in the real world, but without an actual real world example, it’s all theory. Fiction, however, is its own world, with its own rules. In this world, The Joker can get away with it.
David Hayes: That’s why I said not the same kind of planning as what is being thought of here. The planning we’ve been going on about is the kind where an end goal is in mind, with a long-term course. The Joker isn’t really thinking about the long-term, and a lot of what he does is playing it by ear.
This actually makes me question his planning strategy and how much he had to do with the abductions of Dent and Dawes. He knew at the very least where they could be found.
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Darwin Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 8:41 pmScott:
What you said was…”It’s entirely possible to come up with an ingenious plan without actually trying to think. ”
YOU of course brought it OUT of the realm of fiction when you said…”It is ENTIRELY possible.”
To which I replied….
It isn’t.
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Scott123 Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 8:52 pmOw! Ow! My head! My head!
I always thought the difference between good and evil is….YOU.Your friend on the high dive,
Scott123 -
Scott Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 8:56 pmYou were talking about how in the real world, Joker-like thinking wouldn’t work well. I said that yes, you’re right, but the beauty of fiction makes it work in this fictional world.
It’s possible to come up with an ingenious plan without actually trying to think.
That doesn’t mean it will run smoothly without a hitch.
A tactic that fails because something happened that you didn’t account for doesn’t make it not ingenious. By that logic, supervillains rarely have ingenious plans because the superheroes almost always stop them. Suddenly, Lex goes from evil mastermind, to just plain evil.
Though now that I’ve taken the time to think about the analogy, your conclusion makes no sense. A dog chasing a car. That’s not a car chasing a car. It’s a much slower, smaller creature running after something much bigger and faster that’s going forward. The car could crash and burn into the wall, and the dog would stop dead in its tracks unharmed.
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Terence Sullivan Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 10:47 pmTo tell you the truth I think creation can last without destruction. The painter just has to reapply the paint every once in a while.
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Darwin Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 10:48 pmSadly, many dogs who chase cars get
severely injured or die because of the car stopping suddenly…Simply because the dog has been pouring on the speed and has no time to react.
This is how the analogy makes sense.
And ingenious is also defined as “clever” which is defined as mentally quick and resourceful.
So if the plan fails…then the “mentally quick and resourceful” part…not so much.
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Brittny Says:
August 31st, 2008 at 1:09 amI don’t think that good and bad are separate and equal. They are not yin and yang in my opinion. There is good and the corruption of good. So yes I think good can stand alone. I think we can taste good and taste joy even without bad and sadness. HOWEVER the reality of our world is that there is good and bad, light and darkness. We can’t be truly free to live in light unless we face the realities of the darkness and the corruption of good.
I disagree with your friend but I giggle delightedly at what he has to say. I think the beauty of art is that we can explore the darkness in ourselves and our world without hurting anyone. I delight in the Joker and his chaos to a certain extent but I don’t confuse chaos and free though with sadism, despair and selfishness. The Joker could paint his vision of chaos in oils rather than dead bodies.
And that’s another thing. Chaos is not always bad. Regimented order and rules are not always good. I think we have to be careful in defining “good” and “bad” and not constrict our definitions to what makes us comfortable. There is as much chaos in science as there is certainty. There is a humility in chaos. In the realization that you’re not in control of much that goes on in this crazy universe. That’s beautiful. There is so much in the Joker… (his insight, his intellect, his humor) in each of us that is beautiful and “good.” It’s our choices and the use of all of our gifts that puts it under the catagory of good OR evil.
I hope some of that makes sense. LOL! Thanks for another wonderfully thought provoking topic.
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taylor nikole Says:
August 31st, 2008 at 1:23 am“Yeah, you were a little quit for a while Rachel, but that’s why I like reading the comments you do post. You may not always have much to say, but the little you do have to say is worth reading!”
hahah unlike friday getting a huge novel to read from moi every blog
he must get tired of thatbut he is totally right!
you hear so much from some people its just nice to get someone elses opinion every now and then<3 taylor nikole
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taylor nikole Says:
August 31st, 2008 at 1:29 am“I think the beauty of art is that we can explore the darkness in ourselves and our world without hurting anyone.”
hmmm relating art to the joker
i must admit he is very crafty and can make one hell of a puzzle…not only just exploring the darkness, but i guess in this case we can relate it to darkness…
but also the lightness that comes from the darkness.unlike my twisted sense of ‘liking’ and entertainment….
Sometimes dark things tend to warm my heart…
i don’t know what it is, but the discomforting feeling is different and something most people don’t like to experience in darkness…
on the other hand i find it fascinating…
along with lightness ofcourse anyways i hope im making sense
ishhh
afterall i’m dead tired….on the brighter side, i learned how to drive stick shift today
its amazing how much you can really accomplish when you are determined and put your mind to it! -
StephenK Says:
August 31st, 2008 at 5:48 am“This is also a concept much cherished by anarchists, the idea that destruction is a vital part of creation.”
Paul,
Yes. I recognized a kind of recycled 60′s social anarchism. Cite some 5000 year old Hindu/Buddhist myths or beliefs. Claim enlightenment. Destroy. Then claim it was a social good.
SteveK -
Ham Says:
August 31st, 2008 at 9:47 amJoker wasn’t necessarily about destruction in the physical sense. He was more concerned with destruction in the moral sense. That “when the chips are down”, people will choose to evil, instead of good. From a theological perspective, he is Satan. He wants to repeatedly put people in tough situations, causing them to face extremely difficult moral dilemmas, so that they lose faith in themselves, in their own conscience, and in humanity as a whole. He’s a hyperbole though. He’s not a sneaking whisperer.
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Ron St.Amant Says:
August 31st, 2008 at 8:55 pmWe seem to live in a universe that demands the duality. Light and darkness, matter and anti-matter, God and the Devil, sin and salvation- the list is endless.
Even Freud divised a duality within, the Id and the Super-Ego.
Creation and Destruction posits a competition, or at least a competing paradigm.
Genesis after all was the destruction of nothingness and the creation of something.
We can embrace these concepts, this bi-polarity of existence, and it may well serve us.
But with Chaos theory there comes a different paradigm. One in which rather than competition, there is mutual reliance, or even one might say a moment when they unify.
For if we take chaos as itself some sort of ordered system, then nothing is either chaotic nor truly ordered.
The same is true for the idea of creation and destruction. If we see destruction as not a point of differentiation from creation, but part of one unifying system whereby destruction is merely reordered creation, then they are neither opposite sides, nor the same side of the same coin, but the coin itself.
So destruction and creation are the same, only mankind has chosen to separate and define them differently.
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Brittany Says:
September 1st, 2008 at 11:44 amHey Allison, I think we have to make mistakes or do bad to realize how to do and try to do the “good thing”. Our mistakes give us the taste of bad but then we use that taste to recreate doing the good thing to replace and uplift our error. ” Is is possible to believe in creation without also believing in destruction?” I think creation is a great thing. But everything with a begining has to end, doesn’t it? Or maybe after it ends it becomes something bigger then it was or effects on something else. Ok my mind is rumbling. Have a good day! XXXOOO britt
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Gnome Says:
September 1st, 2008 at 4:04 pmOh my..
Speaking on the Batman….What do Christian Bale and Kermit the Frog have in common? More than you might realize…
http://community.livejournal.com/ohnotheydidnt/27350111.html
Sorry… I had to share it!!
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Sarah Says:
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:23 pmOh my, i LOVE that haha. too tired to get in deep, but wow
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